Perfectspeak - Volume 1

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Sorry for moving the thread back and away from the topic, but couldn't resist......

Don't worry...I'll put it back at its rightful place.

Man's response to 'God' has broadly been on the following:
0) There is no concept of a God

That's atheism.

1) God is dangerous and evil. If you don't worship/ appease him, he will destroy you.

This is a fallacy arising from misinterpretation of religios texts. No text says thus.

2) God need not be feared. He will be good to you if you worship him, but he will be evil to you if you don't

True...God need not be feared. But who said he will be good to you if you worship him and evil otherwise? God is never evil. Having said that, let me also tell you that its our Karma that results in good or bad reactions. And the reactions from our Karma are not God's actions. They are some laws of nature at play.

3) God is a good being. He will be good to you if you worship him, but you are his child and even if you don't believe in him, he cares for you and will forgive you.

Refer to Point 2

4) God is the compassionate being. He will be good to you irrespective of whether you believe in him or not

Again refer to Point 2

5) There is no such thing as god (becomes sort of redundant when I don't need to fear/ appease/ pray to him/her)

Just because you don't look at something or take an interest in it, you cannot deny its existence.

If you notice, Hinduism has elements of all these at the same time.. Most would not agree with this, but probably the heighest form of hinduism is actually atheism when you actually start thinking that god is in you. My very brief exposure to some Islamic discussions also point out to, in essence, (3) or (4) above. I could be mistaken and hence apologise.

The beauty of Sanatana Dharma (not hinduism as is colloquially said) is that its a very democratic religion. People are not tightly bound by severe rules and regulations. Followers can choose their path to God (There are 9 different ways described to attain God described in our scriptures). And I don't understand your point about believing that God is in you being the same as Atheism. An atheist ignores the very existence of God (as put up by you in points 1 & 5).

Sorry, I am almost irreligious, but there were some interesting discussions going on..

Do join in. Your inputs are appreciated.

[Prince]

Thanks HP for pointing me to this post.



I think my attempt at being brief has made my post unclear. Hence I will restate my thoughts rather than respond to your observations.



What I listed down was the sequence in which religion may have developed.



0) There was no concept of a 'god' for the early man. He then saw lightning and floods and death from tigers. He got scared and when he couldn't assign a reason for certain happenings, he became fearful, thought of a superpower and began to 'worship' him



1) Hence, God is dangerous and evil. If you don't worship/ appease him, he will destroy you. That's how sacrifices may have started.



With growth in civilization and knowledge about the causes of things happening around him, there was less to fear.



2) God need not be feared. He will be good to you if you worship him, but he will be evil to you if you don't. God is still seen as a powerful being. Keep him in good humour and he will generally leave you alone.



I probably missed out on an intermediate stage in my earlier post. It is okay not to please him, but for heaven's sake, don't antagonise him.



3) God is a good being. He will be good to you if you worship him. Ask for favours and he will grant them to you.



But you are his child and even if you don't believe in him, he cares for you and will 'forgive' you if you are good.



4) God is the compassionate being. He will be good to you and cares for you irrespective of whether you believe in him or not



5) There is no such thing as god (becomes sort of redundant when I don't need to fear/ appease/ pray to him/her)



The last one is a bit of a leap. The god is in you. I am on slippery ground here, but this is a layman's interpretation of aham brahmam. You don't have to worship/ pray. No rituals are required, etc. Effectively, there is no 'separate' being called god. OK, this may not be the same thing as atheism, but is almost like a parallel track to atheism, simply put. Mathematically, 'tending towards atheism'? Probably not the same thing as 'there is no god', but more as 'there is no need for religious practices, rituals and thoughts and scriptures'



I do realise that one probably needs to go step by step to reach stage 5. It would be too presumptous of anybody to think that they could jump stages in their search for god.



Am I making sense?

[Prince]

Speaking of prayers, the best I have come across in any language is this:



God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage to change the things I can,

and the wisdom to know the difference.



I don't if this is from any scripture, but I think it is used by the Alcoholics Anonymous. If you think about it, what more could one really ask for from god?

[CtrlAltDel]

Am I making sense?

yes u do......an argument well put forward Prince!

[Prince]

Yeah, but fear when you know you havent done what your supposed to. Or have done what youre not supposed to. Cuz you know you'll be punished for it unless you repent.

Just a couple of rhetorical questions. I may be irreligious, but I am no atheist either



Q1:

IF I commit no sin, and,

IF I help my fellow beings in every way I can,



Will 'god' be happy about me and bless me?



Q2:

IF I commit no sin, and,

IF I help my fellow beings in every way I can, and

IF I deny the existence of god (in my ignorance, you may say),



Will I go to heaven or hell (assuming they exist)?

[black wizard]

http://www.churchofsatan.com

check it out. really absurd stuff!

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Prince....



There is a slight gap in your understanding of the concept of Aham Brahmam. Actually, the Vedantic school of thought makes this as their slogan. And again, literal interpretation of the phrases and verses is the culprit here.



Aham Brahmam means I am Brahma (the Supreme Being). But the phrase has a deeper meaning than what is conveyed literally. It talks of the stage of spiritual evolution in man where he feels the Godliness within himself and that is the stage of true self realisation.



There are 3 ways of attaining God (the same as self-realisation as per the philosophy) as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. They are Gyana (Knowledge), Bhakti (Devotion) & Karma (Action). The path of Bhakti is where you perform rituals. This path requires extreme discipline and the rituals should be performed from the bottom of your heart, rather than just out of habit. The path of Gyana is where you attain self realisation through attaining knowledge through studies, experience and focussed dissemination of facts. This path requires you to be very inquisitive and tenacious. Karma is said to be the easiest path to God in today's circumstances. The googly is that Karma is also where you can lose your path easily. This happens through maya.



Thus, whatever path you choose, God (your true self) is attainable. And even when you are not performing rituals ie. when you are pursuing the paths of Gyana & Karma, you are still searching for God.



I hope I answered your questions on the last section (a parallel track to atheism).

[Jaszalcatraz]

The biggest proof of the existence of God lies in beliefs of the athiest, who thinks that the world is so perfect (which is his creation) that we do not need him anymore.



I read this somewhere (put more eloquently though)

[lizard king]

looks like religion and god have been doing rounds for ever and ever, which defeintely makes it one of the most contraversial topic, and believe me, i thought nationalism was the biggest contraversy till date.

[rock_26iin]

looks like religion and god have been doing rounds for ever and ever, which defeintely makes it one of the most contraversial topic, and believe me, i thought nationalism was the biggest contraversy till date.

Was that really necessary?

[CtrlAltDel]

looks like religion and god have been doing rounds for ever and ever, which defeintely makes it one of the most contraversial topic, and believe me, i thought nationalism was the biggest contraversy till date.

Was that really necessary?

of corz! PC++

[rock_26iin]

looks like religion and god have been doing rounds for ever and ever, which defeintely makes it one of the most contraversial topic, and believe me, i thought nationalism was the biggest contraversy till date.

Was that really necessary?

of corz! PC++

Another one bites the dust!

[lizard king]

looks like religion and god have been doing rounds for ever and ever, which defeintely makes it one of the most contraversial topic, and believe me, i thought nationalism was the biggest contraversy till date.

Was that really necessary?

of corz! PC++

na man..

i dont use a PC, i use a Mac

[rock_26iin]

looks like religion and god have been doing rounds for ever and ever, which defeintely makes it one of the most contraversial topic, and believe me, i thought nationalism was the biggest contraversy till date.

Was that really necessary?

of corz! PC++

na man..
i dont use a PC, i use a Mac

get up and smell the apples