Perfectspeak - Volume 1

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:47 am

Ladies, Gentlemen and whoever else was left out.

Hi and welcome to Perfectspeak. A weekly column where I'll be raving about something or the other. Don't know how far my schedule is going to permit this; but I hope it does serve as something worthwhile on the boards. The first issue is Keep the feedback coming.

I was finding it very difficult to choose a topic for the first issue of Perfectspeak. And after two hours of fighting my own thoughts, I finally zeroed in on something very topical and also, something that has been doing the rounds on the boards over the last couple of days. Yes. I'll be talking about whether we should fear God. It feels nice to be starting something new with someone as wonderful as the Almighty Himself, and at the same time, the premise that I might end up influencing atleast one mind positively is worth the effort.

As a firm believer in the Advaita school of thought, my hypothesis of this question stems from a stipulation that we are a creation of the Almighty and this creation came up as a thought of His. And being a thought of the Father, we are no different from him. According to this philosophy, the concept of salvation is defined as the state of enlightenment where the soul recognises its true self ie. God Himself. And in its endevour to attain salvation, a soul goes through different states of being. AS mentioned in one of my previous posts, the Sanatana Dharma texts clearly define these states of being as the four varnas (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya & Shudra)

As mentioned by Jasz's friend, mere mortals have to fear God. This is the first step towards self-realisation. But the analogy given there somehow does not convince me. If a child fears his parents (the way people claim they fear God), it means that something was lacking in the parentage. The first emotion of a child towards his parents should be love, followed by respect, then devotion and responsibility, with fear coming way down the list.

Now that I've answered the question in question, let me touch upon a very pertinent question that rises from the above. Why should we fear God then? People mentioned that we need to fear God as we are answerable to him. No. This fact should give us a deeper sense of responsibility rather than fear. God never wants the sould to do good things under fear. The thrust should be on doing good because you feel like doing so. Fear is more of a natural feeling in your subconscious that stems from the knowledge that someone is superior to you. This fear showly fades away the closer you come to realising your self.

So, is being God-fearing a virtue? I still say it is. If you exercise your grey cells a bit, you'll notice that God-fearing could be explained as...

1. One who fears God. An interpretation that unfortunately, most of us understand and mean.

2. One who fears none but God. The ideal way to do it. But easier said than done.

The second option can be true of a person only when he realises that he is His child and He will take care of him. And once a person truly reaches this state, he becomes a Brahmin (The highest spiritual state a mortal can achieve). And believe me, thats a long way to go.

******Looks at the watch and its time to go.******

I'll conclude this by saying that when a person starts thinking of the Almighty as his own, it makes things much easier. Don't think of God as someone who sits in the heaven and watches us; keeping a track of everything bad that we're doing so that He can grill us once we're out of this body. God is a part of us, always with us to show us the right path & be a guiding light. So, don't be scared of your friend. Go upto Him and embrace Him. He'll never let you down.

*********************************************************************************************************

There goes my first episode in a hopefully long run at the board Box Office. I request all beings superior and inferior to me to keep these threads spam-free. I also want suggestions for future Perfectspeaks. So there...I leave the forum open for you all.

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:17 am

HP, great idea to start this thread.

Religion and its practice is a very personal thing. I understand what youre saying though, and youve made some very good points. Again, you have to understand that the way one is supposed to worship and think about GOD differs from one religion to another. Although amost every religion's ideas and beliefs spread the same message----there are intricate differences you'd notice.

Fear of GOD in ISLAM doesnt come from some religious saint who decided that we should all fear him so we can go to Heaven. Not at all.

As a matter of fact, there are verses in the QURAN that state one should fear ALLAH.

I have c.d's and tapes with lectures from reknowned Muslim speakers who talk about various topics dealing with the correct way to practice our Faith. So yeah, fear is definitely part of it.

Anyway, Im just doing and saying whats beed taught to me

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:26 am

Thanx Alexis for replying.

I know that religion is something very personal and we should not try and force our thoughts on others. But, every religion mentions clearly that if you feel that religion is being misinterpreted of misapplied anywhere, you have a right to speak up for the truth. Thats just what I did here. Again, I'm just presenting my perspective and I'm not saying that this is the absolute truth. I'm still a spiritual novice, just trying to get my feet in.

Just the way you said that you have been taught to fear God, so have we. Right from childhood, we have been told that God will punish us if we do this, that and so on. And this has happened because we have become too orthodox and have been taking our religious texts literally.

I request you to quote whatever line/verse/text/speech made you understand that we need to fear Allah. I'll present my understanding of the same. Another perspective to the same thing maybe.

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:19 am

We should be Mu’hsinoon or Muttaqon (God conscious or God-fearing Muslims). This means that we have to remember and fear Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) at all times. We have to be righteous and pious and restrain and guard ourselves from evil. We have to be strong in conveying the Truth and should not fear anyone but Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala). We should see to it that everything we think, we say, and we do is Islamic ¾ in complete submission to the Will of Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala). We should have Taqwa (fear of Allah), which is a virtuous conduct in the Sight of Allah

Abu Hurairah (radhiallahu anhu) narrated that “Allah’s Messenger (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) was asked, “Who are the most honorable of the people?” The Prophet (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) said, “The most honorable of them in Allah’s Sight are those who keep their duty to Allah and fear Him…” (Bukhari 6/211)

Verily, Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) is the Only One Who deserves our fear. We should fear Him Alone as He knows the secrets of our hearts and is well acquainted with all that we do (5:7-8). Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) says:
“O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam. And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves...” (3:102-103)

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:23 am

“It is only the Evil One that suggests to you the fear of his votaries: be not afraid of them but fear Me if you have faith.” (3:175)

“And call in remembrance the favor of Allah unto you, and His Covenant, which He ratified with you, when you said: “We hear and we obey”: and fear Allah, for Allah knows well the secrets of your hearts.” (5:7)

“To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and on earth and to Him is duty due always: then will you fear other than Allah?” (16:52)

“Turn your back in repentance to Him and fear Him: establish regular prayers and be not among those who join gods with Allah.” (30:31)

“O you who believe! Fear Allah, and let every soul look to what (provision) he has sent forth for the morrow. Yea, fear Allah for Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that you do.” (59:18 )

We should as much as possible inculcate in our minds and hearts the fear of Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala). Wherever we are, we have to fear Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala), do good deeds and deal with people nicely:

Abu Dharr (radhiallahu anhu) narrated that Allah’s Messenger (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) said to him, “Fear Allah wherever you are; if you follow an evil deed with a good one you will obliterate it; and deal with people with a good disposition.” (Tirmidhi 5083)

Ali Bin Abu Talib (radhiallahu anhu) narrated that the last words, which Allah’s Messenger(sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) spoke were: “Prayer, prayer; fear Allah about those whom your right hands possess.” (Abu Dawud 5137)

The non-Muslims should also know that they should fear no one but Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala). Allah is Most Gracious, Most Merciful, but His Wrath is Most Severe for those who deny Him. They should fear Allah; for Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) is strict in punishment (5:2). Allah the Almighty warns:

“O you who believe! Devour not usury doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that you may (really) prosper. Fear the Fire that is prepared for those who reject faith. And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may obtain mercy.” (3:130-132)

And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true. But if you cannot and of a surety you cannot then fear the fire whose fuel is Men and Stones which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (2:23-24)

by **-:-PhAT-:-** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:31 am

omg..i askd my dad..to lemme go to shahrukh khan's concert..

n he was like no...wht happiness whud u get outta meetin him..

meet ppl like Zakir Naik etc n feel happy.. :-(

oh well...i wud hav wanted to meet Ahmad Deedad...

i fear the Fire!!

***God show me the way because the Devil trying to break me down...

The only thing that I pray is that me feet don't fail me now***

by **Adonis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:49 am

alexis the two posts u posted mention the messenger ..is that mohammed??..

by **Portuguese Man-Of-War** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:38 am

I don't think God rewards us or punishes us. It is our karma that rewards us or punishes us.

God and karma are, in my understanding, completely different. You should be afraid of doing bad because it will come back one day. In my experience, it is very difficult to persuade God to interfere in the acts of men, in their karma. Which is why Narendra Modi says that he killed 2,000+ people in the name of Lord Rama and then gets to be CM of Gujarat instead of becoming a paralytic. And which is why 2,000+ innocent people died. Lord Rama didn't intervene. I'm not supporting that. It's just that He is like that only.

In my understanding, God primarily helps you attain salvation. If you follow Him, you lose attachment, and eventually your soul gets liberated. After all, life is nothing but suffering, interspersed with brief bouts of amnesia and intoxication that make you forget that it is all about suffering.

So, to answer HP's original point, no, you need not fear God. He doesn't interfere in your life much - even if you kill 2,000+ people ruthlessly. He doesn't misuse His power or trespass into karma's jurisdiction. Much like Mr. Vajpayee - who kept out of Gujarat saying Law And Order was a state subject, and the Centre couldn't intervene, when he could've exported the whole friggin' Indian Army there to save 2,000+ people whose parents and children were being butchered in front of their terror-struck eyes.

Be scared not of God, but of karma: You be good, you beget good - you be bad, you beget bad.

I'd give anything to know what Mr. Modi's next birth is going to be like. Also, Mr. Advani's, Mr. Vajpayee's, Mr. Joshi's and those of a legion others.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:41 am

Alexis, in da extract from the Quran u posted, do u feel it is possible that the followers have mis-interpreted the meaning of the the word 'FEAR'. cud it also be taken to mean 'Deep Respect' for Allah and 'Respect for His rules'.

the anology of parents n kids is used by many here. the so-called "fear" of parents that kids have, i believe is more a "Respect" than literal Fear. after all u dont quake in your shoes when u see or hear yr parents, but u feel a sense of respect and security. the Fear is felt when u have committed a wrong n u r afraid to face yr mom or dad.

dont u think this is what the extract meant to convey: an image of a caring Parent who we have to fear only if we break the rules, else we can freely approach n talk to Him/Her anytime we feel the need for comfort/reassurance.

i personally feel that the purpose of any religion is to provide comfort n solace, along with a warning not to deviate from the correct path. Fear shudn't become an overwhelming feeling here if a follower is leading a proper life.

summary: Lead a proper life, have nothing to fear from God. Do something bad, fear His anger.

well...these are my random thots. Badmash has also expressed something similar in the "All About Me" thread.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:54 am

Portuguese Man-Of-War wrote:I'd give anything to know what Mr. Modi's next birth is going to be like.

:evil: i hope he's reborn as a pig and is killed n roasted for dinner. why doesnt the new central govt. tighten the screws on him now? saale, sab mile hue hain... :evil:

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:13 pm

Alexis wrote:We should be Mu’hsinoon or Muttaqon (God conscious or God-fearing Muslims). This means that we have to remember and fear Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) at all times. We have to be righteous and pious and restrain and guard ourselves from evil. We have to be strong in conveying the Truth and should not fear anyone but Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala). We should see to it that everything we think, we say, and we do is Islamic ¾ in complete submission to the Will of Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala). We should have Taqwa (fear of Allah), which is a virtuous conduct in the Sight of Allah

This is what I meant when I said people have started taking things too literally. What the scriptures mean to say is....Fear the backlash of Allah (read the reactions to your deeds, the rules of which have been stipulated by Him) when you do something wrong. It does not mean that you need to generate a fear conscious in your mind with regards to Allah.

Allah has also been mentioned as the benevolent one. Tell me..why should one fear someone who is benevolent?

Alexis wrote:Abu Hurairah (radhiallahu anhu) narrated that “Allah’s Messenger (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) was asked, “Who are the most honorable of the people?” The Prophet (sallallâhu ‘alayhi wasallam) said, “The most honorable of them in Allah’s Sight are those who keep their duty to Allah and fear Him…” (Bukhari 6/211)

Yes...the same explanation I provided for the last point holds true here too. When the messenger mentions those who fear Allah, he means people who restrict themselves from doing anything wrong.

Alexis wrote:Verily, Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) is the Only One Who deserves our fear. We should fear Him Alone as He knows the secrets of our hearts and is well acquainted with all that we do (5:7-8). Allah (Subhanahu wa ta’ala) says:
“O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam. And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves...” (3:102-103)

Before I explain this, I would like to know your interpretation of the phrase "A state of Islam".

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:45 pm

ALLAH never said or claimed anywhere in the QURAN to be afraid of HIM. Instead, fear the outcome of our deeds, because HE will punish or reward us according to them.

"...State of ISLAM" is that verse, means to die as a believing Muslim.

by **Aquarian81** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:50 pm

My interpretation of the word 'fear' in reference to God is simple: Higher Authority seems to strike fear in many people, and deep respect is also sensed as fear. In the case of parents, elder family members, principles, law enforcement authorities or government authorities, the emotion of fear is lurking nearby. Atleast this is the case for me personally, I am on no account speaking for the rest of the population.

As in all cases, "to each their own".

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:52 pm

Alexis wrote:ALLAH never said or claimed anywhere in the QURAN to be afraid of HIM. Instead, fear the outcome of our deeds, because HE will punish or reward us according to them.

Did I say that?

Alexis wrote:"...State of ISLAM" is that verse, means to die as a believing Muslim.

I could understand that. I wanted to know how you interpret being a believing muslim. And tell me if you feel I'm getting unduly personal here.

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:16 pm

A believing Muslim is one who believes in the 5 Pillars of Islam. Who prays the mandatory 5 times a day. Recites the Quran as much as he/she can.

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:17 pm

Alexis wrote:A believing Muslim is one who believes in the 5 Pillars of Islam. Who prays the mandatory 5 times a day. Recites the Quran as much as he/she can.

So, if I do 5 prayers in a day, recite the Quran as much as I can and cheat a poor man out of his life's earnings, do I qualify as a believing muslim?

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:28 pm

No, because if you were robbing that guy out of his savings, wouldnt be following the teachings in the Quran. Thats why you read the Quran, to learn and understand how to live and let others live.

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:46 pm

Alexis wrote:No, because if you were robbing that guy out of his savings, wouldnt be following the teachings in the Quran. Thats why you read the Quran, to learn and understand how to live and let others live.

Right...contrary to what people practice, being a true muslim or a true christian or a true sanatani is not about worshipping. Its about being good and doing good. Worship is just one of the ways to get closer to God. And worship is not performed by sitting in a temple or mosque and reciting some verses. It needs to come from the heart.

Our religion doesn't bind us to any form of worship. It just says that God needs to be there in your heart all the time. And if you try and go beyond what is literally said in the Quran, you will see for sure that the Quran too would stress more on thinking about God rather than reading a book or reciting some verses.

And when you start being good and doing good, you start loving God. And no one fears someone they love.

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:21 pm

Yeah, but fear when you know you havent done what your supposed to. Or have done what youre not supposed to. Cuz you know you'll be punished for it unless you repent.

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:27 pm

Alexis wrote:Yeah, but fear when you know you havent done what your supposed to. Or have done what youre not supposed to. Cuz you know you'll be punished for it unless you repent.

In that case, would you fear the wrong act itself, repercussions of the act, or, colloqially (sp?) speaking, the perpetrator of the repercussions?

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:00 pm

I'd fear the repercussions of the act. If it was forbidden, then I'd expect punishment. And I know I fear punishment. And who would do the punishing? GOD. So its like, you fear the punishment of your sin, and in turn you start fearing GOD too because hes the Punisher.

But if it was a good deed, a good act---I know I'll be rewarded. So then I'd feel comfort and loving toward God.

Fear, love, respect......with GOD, you feel everything.

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:05 pm

Alexis wrote:I'd fear the repercussions of the act. If it was forbidden, then I'd expect punishment. And I know I fear punishment. And who would do the punishing? GOD. So its like, you fear the punishment of your sin, and in turn you start fearing GOD too because hes the Punisher.

That would be the wrong approach. The Punisher is punishing you because you did something wrong. Not because He has something against you. So why fear Him?

I was a bad student in my school days...never did my homework. And my teachers used to punish me for that. And punish me bad at times. I never feared my teachers as I knew that they are acting in my best interests and its just me who's being a stubborn ass. Had I feared my teachers then, I would have never been able to be what I am today.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:33 pm

Habitual Perfectionist wrote:...being a true muslim or a true christian or a true sanatani is not about worshipping. Its about being good and doing good. Worship is just one of the ways to get closer to God. And worship is not performed by sitting in a temple or mosque and reciting some verses. It needs to come from the heart......go beyond what is literally said in the Quran, you will see for sure that the Quran too would stress more on thinking about God rather than reading a book or reciting some verses.
And when you start being good and doing good, you start loving God. And no one fears someone they love.

my insignificant post above has been lost in this profound debate, but if u read it, u'll i've said somewhat the same thing, and so does the Badmash in the All About Me thread.

coming to my personal beliefs, i am not an athiest but i do not believe in ritualistic practice and prayers. yes i do not believe in prayers. i am straying in Heretic country here, but thankfully 'heresy' doesnt exist in my religion.

i have observed that most of the prayers in the major religions are nothing but verses praising their respective Gods to the skies. I see God as a benevolent force that oversees n keeps check of our behaviour. i see prayers as sycophancy n flattery in order to gain Gods attention. if i am leading a 'proper' life, He'll (or She'll) take care of me, irrespective of whether i pray or not. only if i've seriously sinned, do i need to pray as much as i can, but even that may not save me.

if i need to thank God for anything, i just close my eyes and say "Thank you God" in english and mean it with all my heart. that shud suffice. why shud i learn long verses by rote and recite them from memory everytime?

till now life has turned out well, so i guess He/She up there is happy with me

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:46 pm

"She"? If God truly was a woman (Nouzo-billah), women wouldnt have all the problems they do. PMS, child-birth, etc.

by **Alexis** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:47 pm

But Im not complaining about being a woman. I wouldnt have had it any other way if given the choice.

Perfectspeak - Volume 1

Perfectspeak - Volume 1

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